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COKE DRUM FABRICATION & DELIVERIES

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This topic contains 20 replies, has 4 voices, and was last updated by  Anonymous 10 years, 7 months ago.

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  • #3474

    Mangiarotti S.p.A.
    Participant

  • #6653

    Anonymous

    The last that I heard is that drums were at least two years out, but I belive that it has worsened. We heard rumours that one refinery was made an offer for the new drums that it had just received because there are not scheduled to be installed for a quite sometime and someone needed them badly. The drums that I have seen lately have been coming out of Japan, Spain, and Belgium. I would suggest contacting one of the fabricators there to discuss your needs with them.

  • #6651

    Mangiarotti S.p.A.
    Participant

  • #6649

    Charles Randall
    Participant

    The general information had been that the average time frame for coker project is 24 months so if you take off time to get drums up & piped in that would say about 18 months for delivery from start construction to startup (but think this also depends on lead time to place order to fab shop between end planning & start of EPC – Construction stage. But that is average so expect the range is +/-2 months depending on “where” delivery point “IS” is (to quote Bill Clinton).
     
    Having said that the current construction “buzz” is that it is taking 1-2 years longer for coker projects and up to 2-3 years longer on Upgrader coker projects for the constuction and lot has to do with both material, manpower & permiting problems. As that happens and these coker projects space out instead of being on top of each other – some are going to be +2years now & few firm orders already in are going reap benifit and be under 2 years.
     
    One examples of 18 month time frame is India Reliance Refinery & coker doubling project – just like the first one it is starting up way early of the 24 month target date & comes online this year with drums sourced out of Asian sector.  Several of the Chinese coking refineries are coming online this year in advance of the 2009 target dates & so I think you still have to use China as big dog on supplying coke drums/ production & quick deliver capabilities compared to bottlenecks in both EU & US drum companies.
     
    Regards

  • #6646

    Mangiarotti S.p.A.
    Participant

  • #6645

    Anonymous

    Your comment about the ordering sequence made me think of a question. Do you not need to know  who the Engineer is when the drums are being built. I know that different companies license different coking processes like Foster-Wheeler and Conoco-Phillips for example. Does the proprietary process technology not affect the drum construction and design?

  • #6634

    Mangiarotti S.p.A.
    Participant

  • #6633

    Charles Randall
    Participant

    Hopefully one of the Coker Licensors like Foster and /or EPC contractors like Fluor/ABB/Bechtel Wheeler/ConocoPhillips will jump in and give their view – but here is perspective of long time observer /sometime meddler of process:
     
    When the project is in Planning stage & size addition or expansion is developed for the budgeted level of cost it moves into the FEED stage (Front End Engineering & Design) where throughputs are maximized for investment cost range while optimizing the production of higher end products and minimizing lower valued products & byproducts. The coker design is developed & as the project moves into the EPC (Engineering, Procurement & Construction) stage the coke licensor is selected (sometimes it is done in FEED stage). 
     
    The coke licensing often has great deal impact on the coker design & later fabrication since the guarantee’s are only good if the company insures they are followed in the engineering/design/fabrication stages as specified in the “technology offering”. Since the coker requires at least 2year lead time for construction stage – it is usually one of the first item que up on Procurement stage to get scheduled with fabricator & insure delivery time consistent with the completion goal in construction stage. So unless project revision midprocess = size coker changes or crude supply change impacts type coke formed ie shot vs sponge ; the parameters are well set before fabricator gets ahold procurement & design package.
     
    Some impactors “in mine & others opinion” is that some of Coker Licensors who often also do EPC really “think” more like EPC companies and are willing to cut some corners / allow more flexibility to get the job and hence the licensed/design specifications are not followed as strictly and can result in “less than stellar” fabrication procedures that can lead to drum issues &/or thru-wall cracks and such.  Most of strict licensors like COP and others have a list of “recommended / suggested” suppliers for critical equipment that can cause delays on timing or higher cost but seldom result in “less than stellar” fabrication procedures others run into.  
     
    Bottom line is that although the client / company may pay for a license or design service … it is often their choice whether or not to follow the advice of the experts (although majority of the time they do – expecially marjor/mutiple coking unit refiners). 

  • #6632

    Charles Randall
    Participant

    Sorry guys but there were couple typo’s but I couldn’t correct because the edit mode still sucks (see some previous comments where they tried to include question they are refering to) and often looks like we all have developed to speak “Rap/Hip Hop” coker terms!! <Paul is working on it – just hope we dont get too bad reputation on communication from visitors meantime>
     
    My post should replace one top lines “like Foster and / or EPC contractors like Fluor/ABB/Bechtel Wheeler/ConocoPhillips will jump in” with the following correction “like Foster Wheeler/ConocoPhillips and/or EPC contractors like Fluor/ABB/Bechtel will jump in”.
     
    And the last line has major spelled wrong (marjor)……I sure do miss the ability to have spell check option here
    (: hint hint).
    Regards

  • #6629

    Anonymous

    No problem Charlie. I thank you and Glozada for your input.

  • #6625

    Mangiarotti S.p.A.
    Participant

  • #6624

    Anonymous

    Very well stated.

  • #6622

    Charles Randall
    Participant

    Ok – I promise this will be my last entry & others can “take up”  this cause if they think it is going do any good …… previously they have not!
     
    This is already giving me “Deja Vu” headache’s because it is SO similar to past dicussions of logic issues with my ex-wife who was often emotionally invested in her view-point ……And I can see fabricators might be coming from that type reference on these issues (Make a Paradigm Shift guys!)!  I do have lot sympathy for new companies like Bill’s Mangiarotti that is just trying to break into an established market and get on the Approved Vendor’s List (similar to everyone trying get that first job that depended on experience that you cannot have until you get that first job….).
     
    But the last set “added comments” to my observations (contrary to guest – well done comments) – puts me in position where I now have to cry Bullshit! Guys –These types of positions are one reasons that EPC & Fabricator’s are seen as part of the problem and not part of the solution around Coke Drum issues. Coke drums are ALWAYS part of process license guarantee – not can be. And If you think companies are spending $100’s million for refinery cokers or $ billion’s for upgrade cokers based on fabricators 18 month, warrantee guarantees for coke drums mechanical designs based on ASTM “pressure vessel codes” instead the process coke drum designs that take into account stress / fatigue impacts and driven by coke licensors process guarantees which depend on operating drums/units at least 5000 cycles over 10-18 years (depending on what real coker cycle time is)…..then your being obtuse. 
     
    I “jacked-up” several of my contacts in areas of Coke License, stress monitoring, Drum inspection and refinery mechanical operations/metallurgy as to why they had not joined in on this blog discussion?  They all said the same thing – it is because they fight the battles they can win & many of EPC contractors and Fabricator companies just won’t listen and won’t change what they do.  So About 5 years ago these groups gave up & started working directly with each other to effect the change in the industry & process after several drum failures (and could be part reason it is so tough to get added on Approved Vendor List ….eh)?
     
    The Pressure Vessel Codes that currently are used by the industries for Coke Drums are completely wrong for this application – the vessels in this category never have the type of Stress and Fatigue Cycles that Batch Operated Coke drums go thru. And because they warm up from ambient to 900F and then quench back from 900F to ambient and become category all by themselves & ….. unfortunately the suppliers seldom care. The Refineries, inspectors, monitors & Licensors have been trying for years to get the ASTM to change these codes for Cokers – if want be part solution start helping that process & not staying with limited guarantees for pressure vessels that seldom see stress.  
     
    Also – to become part solution you (and as many of your shop people as you can force your company pay for) need to sign up for SES Coke Drum Workshop and go “actively” listen to refiners & these other groups issues.  But NOT go so you tell them why their viewpoint is wrong …. (like your trying to do here &) like CBI has done previously when it’s Steel supplier’s metallurgist tried to discount need for fab shop to stress relieve the drum there instead of in the field al-natural. It should noted that one reasons for a big shift towards SHI as drum supplier of choice is because they routinely shop stress relieve drums/welds on all coke drums…. unlike other fabricators where clients must insist and often follow-up with site visits to make sure its done “above PV codes” requirements. Fabricators following just PV codes are usually taking short cuts without even knowing it & introducing “less than stellar results” I talked about last time.
     
    Coke Drums CAN be designed and fabricated to handle the stress cycles but the sad fact is that most are not! During the 80’s and 90’s most Coke drums were only built (or replaced) under pressure vessel codes and as result the majority of them cracked within 4-7 years compared to some drums lasting over 30 years now!  This drove some changes around metallurgy from Carbon Steel to Chrome-Moly drums /liners and then back as cracks happened – then the groups & process mentioned earlier started asserting themselves over the objections of EPC & Fabricators.
     
    Now I am leaving out lot things that make the higher level requirements above codes become only a minimum step and not a targeted step – because the coke units dont get to operate at process designed guarantees of 18-24 hour cycles, usually they are driven as low as 9-14 hours and they dont run on predicted heavy crude’s because the quality continues to drop as both the sulfur increases and Bitumen type crude’s add higher TAN and Naphathneic Acid levels to corrosion problems / issues.
     
    But you get my points – dont worry about these shorter term delivery / getting more drums / making APL list problems. The Financial market, refinery economics, demand and ect will take care of those – worry about the long term problems and what problems your customer has and less about what your perspective on them is – after all fabricators only live with drums for 18-36 months while the customer has to live with them for 15-30 years (if they are lucky) and 4-7 if they are not lucky…..and when they are not it is ~ like being married = when momma isn’t happy then no-one stays happy for long!
    Regards
     

  • #6619

    Mangiarotti S.p.A.
    Participant

  • #6618

    Charles Randall
    Participant

    I recall my earlier promise because I intend to address this bunch of chest beating nonsense.
    I notice people quoting professional courtesy & whining about attacks are usually people without the stones to admit truth’s & who also take snipes like the ones to which they are objecting. I not only extended respect & consideration …. it appears I over-extended it in some cases.
     
    I (and most of groups I mentioned) have seen the coke drums in all stages of their life from fabrication to replacement – so I dont know whom you are talking about that only has seen a coke drum on paper. I have seen more drums fabricated and installed for several applications (fuel/needle/anode) at just one refinery site than your company has made so far. 
     
    You need to face up to the fact that Mangiarotti is a NEW COMER to the coke drum industry – so far you have only made (making) 6 coke drums and they have barely been in the field, let alone long enough to have any creditability as to their proven capabilities…. yet (unless your trying count the useless mechanical warrantee period). The manufacturing of heat exchangers or Hydrotreater gives you absolutely NO creditability for making quality coke drums which undergo a great deal of stress – in fact the 60 years it seems to have taken your company to make the attempt in this field…. may have been just good judgment! (So I will give you the one that you just didnt show up one day with portable welding rig….but 60 years to start trying make coke drums is long study period).
     
    It is clear from your post what your reasons for joining the discussion board have been….. to make advertising plugs for your company (glad to see you are finally going to pay for a legitimate advertising spot). This latest post based on first couple comments really seems to be about getting some field verification to prove to potential client that your competitor couldnt deliver drums in time frame you had to compete against (but clearly could not do) and then to break into another chest beating plug for your company – both of which I tried ignore earlier.
     
    The arrogance of proclaiming your going to be the first to share a perspective as world class fabrication company on coke drum fabrication is absolutely crazy move since you have only made 6 drums (and are clearly therefore not a world class coke drum fabricator) and are not anywhere near the capabilities of CBI (+300 drums with over 40 years field operation) or SHI (over +90 drums ~ 2005 & 25+ years field operation).  And let me also say that CBI and other fabricators HAVE not only made efforts over the years to share their perspectives but their presentations in not only the discussion boards and conferences but at both Coker Technology workshops and SES Coke Drum workshops you have yet to attend.
     
    I also doubt you are going to make the cross over to world class drum fabricator because you obviously dont treat your key people as critical part of a team – the fact that you dont feel John the fitter or Frank the welder need to be armed with information about coke drums from workshops (after all they are only the guys on front line making the drums?) but that your management might be says volumes.  Everything I know that works about innovation, teams and solutions – says you train the guys on the front line first and the management /desk jockeys last.
     
    In fact, perhaps I owe both CBI & SHI an apology for elevating you to their class on Drum issues of fabrication that I was addressing. Clearly you not only didnt have the depth experience making drums but you don’t seem to understand the question because you were quoting the very limitations (tail wagging dog/trickle down/”purchasers specification”) as your excuses for why its “not my problem”. And your continued separation between coking process & drum fabrication is going to become a barrier for you eventually.
     
    One last thing –  we are all intelligent people here at the board – please stop inserting the previous statements you respond to as though we are not capable of following your train of thought. We could always scroll back if we get lost.
    Regards

  • #6615

    Anonymous

    I have been following this thread and find a lot of credibility in both point of views. I worked for Fluor for over twenty five years and ABB for ten years plus seven years for world class fabricators (not to mention several smaller fabricators when I was younger). Ive also been part owner of two smaller code fabrication shops. Additionally, I have been a member of the ASME Code since 1966 and have been a member of several committees (I’m a Registered Professional Mechanical Engineer). I have also been a member of delayed coking excellence committees for several refineries. In my career I have been involved in over twenty five delayed coking projects from grass roots to repair and replacement. I have also been involved in field fab coke drums as well as shipment of some of the first SHI coke drums to Baytown. In all the coke drums I have been involved, not one has failed from a fabrication error. The first coke drums I designed are still in operation; however, they operate on an 18 hour cycle and I have to admit that this is less severe than a twelve hour cycle.

    Initially, the coke drum licensors did not specify much fabrication parameters or QA/QC requirements. Lately, because of the number of delayed coking projects, every licensor wants to get a leg up by controlling their design and guarantees. However, at no time is a fabricator expected to provide any other guarantee than a mechanical design and fabrication guarantee; just as an engineering company does not provide a process guarantee for a unit.

    All of you might ask why none of the coke drums I designed have failed; the main reasons are:
    1. I specify the materials, allowable microalloys, J factor if I specify 2.25 Cr,
    2. The specifications applicable to the design
    3. The welding requirements and consumables that I specify
    4. The NDT requirements that I specify for every step of fabrication
    5. The most important aspect is the skirt attachment

    Neither the ASME Code, the licensor, nor the fabricator can substitute engineering, design and fabrication experience. One of the major problems that I have encountered, is the lack of experience in writing specifications and providing the fabricators the requirements to ensure the quality and long life of the product. What I have run into, is that most engineers now require a go by or they do not know what to do. Its not their fault as much as is the computer age. In their opinion, if is not on a screen it can not be right. Technically, (running numbers to the tenth decimal point) they are very sharp and they are all willing to learn; but again, the fabricator can only provide what the engineer requires and specify; it does not matter if is JSW, Kobe, Sumitomo, Belleli, ATB or anybody else. A fabricator is not going to add additional procedures if is going to cost money and increase his overall bid price. Nothing is free. I have to stress that no matter what, the fabricator is only going to quote and fabricate what the purchaser specifies.

    One last point, it is my opinion that an LC Finer or a Hydrocracker is more complex to fabricate and specify than a delayed coker. There are more design and fabrication parameters to consider than the coke drums. Both are extremely severe and as you mention coke drums are in cyclic service, but one involves potential catastrophic results in case of failure where the other will typically only cause major localized problems.

    Thanks to both for your valued information and participation

  • #6613

    Mangiarotti S.p.A.
    Participant

  • #6607

    Anonymous

    Charlie Randall accidentally posted as GUEST and asked us to indicate his name.
    -Forum Admin (Paul Orlowski)
     
    ‘ th’nk th’s has wasted enough of my & other peoples t’me. And ‘ also have no ‘ntent’on of turn’ng th’s ‘nto some we’rd Coke Drum Real’ty show.  ‘ am forced to conceed that my fr’ends or’g’nal post’on was correct & th’s approach to process change ‘s ~waste t’me.[/al’gn] [/al’gn]Only an ‘d’ot, pol’t’c’an or banker (or ev’dently you) would th’nk that a “tour” would tell someone anyth’ng about the qual’ty or capab’l’t’es of a fabr’cat’on or manufactur’ng plant. There are no shortcuts ‘n coke drum ‘ndustry for prov’ng exper’ence / your capab’l’t’es. You need pay your dues and have SEVERAL (more than 6) coke drums ‘n f’eld that last long enough to g’ve w’tness to your cla’ms. A lot of compan’es have great fabr’cat’on shops but they dont bu’ld coke drums, dont cla’m they can and they are not try’ng to pass themselves off as world class drum manufactures.[/al’gn] [/al’gn]’ th’nk one of the other guest made a good po’nt about fabr’cat’on cons’derat’on for the safety aspects / dangerous nature of Hydroreactors or Hydrocrackers. But even ‘f you would shutdown and start-up one of these types of un’ts every day for a whole year and then repeat the process for at least 10 more years – the sever’ty of serv’ce would st’ll not match the cond’t’ons / cycle fat’gue the coke drums go thru every day! The cool down & heat up cycle occurs ‘n a greatly shortened per’od of t’me (less than 4 hours / each) by a water quench & vapor heat cycle – no other pressure vessel ‘n ref’n’ng system goes thru th’s k’nd of stress and ‘t ‘s why the normal Pressure Vessel ASTM codes are so wrong to use for fabr’cat’ng ‘t. The prev’ous guest had a great deal of exper’ence ‘n both fabr’cat’on & EPC area’s & he had good requ’rement l’st for coke drums. However others have done most of these ‘tems but some th’er drums fa’led  – so perhaps h’s drums hav’ng cycle t’mes over 18 hours was a more ‘mportant factor for the’r long l’fe.[/al’gn] [/al’gn]And ‘n regards to “post by other coke drum fabr’cators” – ‘f you checked your facts half as much as you ran your mouth (f’ngers ‘n th’s case) you would know that th’s ‘s a news sect’on & not the work’ng /cok’ng blog sect’on.  Just above the left s’de news l’nks ‘s one called “D’scuss’on Forum” and there ‘s even a sub-sect’on for Coke Drums where th’s thread really should have been posted ‘n the f’rst place. And an earl’er vers’on called “Old D’scuss’on” (1998-2004) ‘s also ava’lable and probably had more act’ve post by the fabr’cators and EPC guys. but Lot of the fabr’cators post were done as “Guest” or often offl’ne d’rectly to/w’th the ref’ner and somet’mes few others. Any goodw’ll towards lead’ng you thru th’s type ‘nformat’on has long ago been exhausted.[/al’gn] [/al’gn]Add’t’onally under “L’nksCB&’ has some of the’r presentat’ons/past d’scuss’ons as PDF on few of the’r ‘nnovat’ons l’ke Coke Drum Vert’cal Plates, f’eld fabr’cat’on and ect.  C’A an ‘nspect’on company “l’nk” also has tutor’al art’cles & some of fabr’cators art’cles. Both of these compan’es are also under the “Products & Serv’ces” l’nk and the’r webs’tes eventually lead to same art’cles. The other fabr’cators have been ‘n the f’eld and ‘n the conferences and ‘n d’scuss’ons / work’ng w’th the’r customers about post fabr’cat’on problems they dont have to spend the’r t’me bragg’ng at a news s’te.  ‘ m’ght also ment’on ‘ have seen several of fabr’cators, EPC & Coke Technology guys br’ng ‘n th’er f’eld guys to even help do the’r presentat’ons about key coke drum ‘nnovat’ons or ‘nstallat’ons.[/al’gn] [/al’gn]You customers (Hunt & Valero) may not have lacked conf’dence ‘n your fabr’cat’on of the’r 6 drums but they are st’ll tak’ng a b’g calculated r’sk that these drums are go’ng to perform as well ‘n the f’eld as alternate fabr’cators w’ll – that ‘s why you only got part of the order.  You have to know that the 2 drums for Pt Arthur and 2 drums for St Charles w’ll be stand’ng next to 4 drums made by other fabr’cators and ‘f your drums fa’l before 5-7 years or substant’ally earl’er than the others – your fabr’cat’on capab’l’t’es ‘s go’ng to be ‘n quest’on along w’th future supply opportun’t’es. [/al’gn] [/al’gn]You can also keep deny’ng your compet’tors ab’l’ty to do a large number of drums ‘n short per’od of t’me, but…… at least 4 Ch’na ref’ner’es have completed cok’ng projects that came onl’ne ‘n 2008 ‘nstead of 2009 goals and that would have represented over 18-20 coke drums be’ng fabr’cated dur’ng the same 18 months by SE’ (EPC) and SH’ (fabr’cators). [/al’gn] [/al’gn]Regards[/al’gn] [/al’gn]

  • #6604

    Mangiarotti S.p.A.
    Participant

  • #6512

    Jerry Jerra
    Participant

    The last that I heard is that drums were at least two years out but I believe that it has worsened

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  • #5661

    Anonymous

    You can see pictures of a coke drum to vertical plates in development?

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